The Ringer talk seems to build toward the end of every session, we're approaching the end currently. One of the comments made on a previous post was concerning the Keg and it's negating the legitimacy of an instructional league.
Before the Keg was introduced, there were a few teams that were playing for the best record, but once a play-off was installed it put the horse shoe around the stake -a ringer. Once the feat of winning was recognized by the league, the stacking of rosters followed. The fact is, if you are an instructional league, your record is meaningless, and you don't crown a champion. If you are one of the teams that likes to proselytize your devotion to "true I-league", then more power to you. That's a very noble cause- trying to spread the good of hockey to those who have never tried it before. Unfortunately, if you are really trying to create better hockey players, then you can't really complain about another team's ringers because you should be celebrating things like head manning the puck, staying on-side, or making a clean break-out. . . not your record.
This really did stop being an I-league a long time ago. When was the last time you attended a practice? Did your team even have a practice this session?
The minor/Major thing is a big innovation, in my opinion. No matter how reserved your team is regarding your record vs. your skill progression, losing week after week will destroy a team before it has a chance to develop. Having the teams that have settled into Saturday night play regulated into the ones who will make whatever moves they can get away with in order to win, and the ones who aren't as progressed or ruthless should help to keep those weaker teams from losing their fire. If you're in the Major division, forget it, you've got to compete or move down. Likewise, if you're dominating the minors, show what resources you've got in the next one up.
I think that there is no such thing as a ringer in the Major division.
The only Saturday night team that has any reason to complain about ringers are the Ice Holes. . . They can't steal a win, even when they call in some of their retired players from their runner-up season.
I bet this shuts-up exactly no one. . .
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27 comments:
shut up ringer...
Well written, Jon. However, this "ringer" debate sucks just as much of my life force as discussion of Pete Rose getting into the Hall of Fame.
The Other Ellis
The only Hall of Fame, Pete Rose will be inducted in is the Gamblers Anonymous Hall of Fame. Chances of Rose in the Baseball HOF and I-League getting rid of ringers is the same. SLIM & NONE!
That raises a good question: Are their goalie ringers? We have been given a free pass in the past, What's your take, America?
John, I think you summed up your situation a couple of weeks ago when you said the Patriots needed to firm up their netminder to advance in the playoffs.
I say no, goalie are not ringers! And the reasons being: 1) There is a very high demand in players for that position in all leagues, including I-league. 2) A lot of players don't want to play the position cause of the cost of goalie gear. You're looking at forking out approx. $3000 for the gear. 3) You have to be an insane person to get nailed with the puck. If not insane, you have to be a phyco to play the position.
Ask Jon Ellis. I've known him to be the biggest nutcase to ever play at the starcenter!
More like $1000ish for the cheap stuff. And someone needs to take up a collection to get Ellis a damn hockey bag. His is a little too Forrest Gump-y lookin like he's about to nomad his way across the country.
As far as ringers... If the whiners put half the energy into skating as they do complaining, then their game would be much better.
Additionally, we have all known the level of skill in this league for awhile. Stop acting surprised session after session. It's annoying.
On another note, I saw another post where someone threatened to kick someone's ass for posting as anon. That has to be one of the goofiest things I've read for 2 reasons. 1. It may prove difficult to isolate who this ass-kicking recipient may be. 2. That may not be the best way to encourage one to use their name given the ass-kicking that may later occur due to disclosing his identity.
Anonymously,
Big Talker
Goalies should not be viewed as ringers. Because they are rare, I think we are all just happy to see any warm body padded up and propped up between the pipes (no insult intended). Goalies run the risk of being viewed as heroes or dog crap by the end of the game... there seems to be no in between. So, I give them a free pass... they put their butts (physically and mentally) on the line to deserve a pass.
The Other Ellis (no relation)
One of the guys on the Ice Holes got really upset during their game vs. Mutineers in the minor divison.
Granted, I was the goal scorer who got the trick, but I, in no way, am a ringer.
But I certainly understand the Ice Holes frustration. There was a time just 3 short years ago where Privateers/Mutineers fielded nothing but new players, and were in the tank in Duncanville. I have been on the other end of a ringer's domination, and yeah - it sucks.
it seems like the same guy on the ice holes is complaining about someone on every team they play against. when we (grave diggers) played against them, it seemed like the rest of the team was having a good time. so you really can't take him too seriously.
Sirkis
Ellis...
You're an idiot. No really...
"I think that there is no such thing as a ringer in the Major division."
until Craig Ludwig or Kevin Mench starts playing? Or are they ok as well?
Can't wait for the day Les manages to get an aging Turco to replace your ass.
THUNDERDOME!
I can't believe you left the Buttgardner twins off the worst ref list!
Actually Ludwig plays a a sub on the D League out in Frisco, but I don't really hear anyone complaining about it--it's viewed more as an opportunity and lots of fun. My ticket rep plays against him all the time. So...If Ludwig is ok to play in D, aren't the rest of us wannabe I Leaguers ok in I? I bet none of us will ever pass Ludwig's accomplishments....somehow I seem to remember something about a Stnaley Cup in his past...hmmm...
Anyway...I think BC3 is right--we all know what Saturday night is like and if you just can't handle it, move up or down or over to another rink. I've been griped out for being a ringer during a season in which I had exactly zero goals, I did have about 30 assists, but no goals whatsoever. I can barely skate at my age on a bad day, but I get out there and enjoy it with my friends. I think some of the whiners just need a few shots of vodka before the game to loosen up and have fun.
you are a ringer anonymous, you are also really mean, and not that good looking either.
I totally agree, Jon. Get rid of the playoffs and championship in the Minor I League, and it'd discourage the worst abuses. The folks on the Ice Holes are in a bad spot, and I wish them the best of luck in keeping their people interested and attending. But since collecting team fees is the goal, not promoting the sport of hockey, we're unlikely to return to the (good old) days of actual Instructional League hockey. People who want to win should play in competitive leagues, D League and up. People who want to learn and get better should play in non-competitive, instructional leagues. The fact that this escapes so many people says a ton about the character of many hockey players.
Randy...
Take away the championship in the minor I?? Where is the fun in that? I am all about learning, but why not learn while fighting for something? Would you all really want to play (even in the minor I) if the competition was removed?? Of course not. We are never going to get away from the "ringer" talk. Whether it is I league, or little league soccer, "ringer" accusations always exist. If you want no competition, go to grapevine where set teams don't actually exist. You just show up with a white or black jersey. I played my very first game ever there and scored a goal, it was ridiculous. I-league is nice because it allows even us sucky players to be competitive and feel good about what we are doing (whereas in D league we would get destroyed). If grapevine is too far away for you, just join stick and puck classes and you can "learn and improve" all you want there.. Meanwhile lets all quit complaining about so called "ringers" because we all have them (ok, almost every team... One or two teams could use one). ;)
I came into this league a year ago not knowing the rules, how to puck handle, or do much of anything... The only way I learned how to steal the puck, defend, shoot (which usually isnt on goal), and skate hard was from chasing after guys 4 times as good as me. If anyone wants extra practice during the week, head to the outdoor rink at the Bedford Boys ranch. Most nights around 7 or 8ish there are plenty of high school kids and older people like myself playing a game (heck, as of late we have even had a goalie show up)..
-27
Are you really suggesting that we need to practice to get into I-League? There is nowhere else to go. That's what entry level means. I don't mind playing against people better than I am, nor do I mind losing. I don't whine about ringers. However, the only way to learn how to play is to play.
I practice skating skills at public skate, I attend stick and puck when I can, but you cannot replace having the puck in a game situation with anything. Let me stress having the puck.
Nobody gets better chasing around someone they can't catch. You get better by playing against players better than you, not Craig Ludwig. Craig doesn't play in I league, but I'm sure if he did he would certainly skate down to a reasonable level. I've skated against Yockey. He's good, but he skated down and it was fun. He even made mistakes he shouldn't have made (I think it was on purpose). I did learn from watching him.
I don't begrudge anyone the right to come and play in I League. I enjoy the diversity, but I would like to be able to touch the puck once in a while. I did pay my $220 to play in the lowest league there is.
6:20,
nobody said anything about having to practice to get into I-league, nor did I mean to suggest that you get good by watching everyone else on your team with the puck. If you never get to touch the puck then I think you need to switch teams because your mates sound like jerks (I would be pretty pissed if my guys never shared the puck). Sure I don't make goals, but it isn't because anyone is hogging the puck, they give me more than enough opportunities. I don't get it how you all (anonymous) complain about how I-league is too competitive and how we should play for the love of the sport, when in all reality you are just whining because your team didn't win.
-27
I'll share the puck, but not my Bud Light
i want my baby back baby back baby back ribs.
uh I'm a ringer? Those 30 assists were off of playing on 4 to 5 teams at several rinks on several days for an entire season (some full roster, some sub) and a few were those "2nd assist" deals I don't even really see the point of. Why not give an assist to everyone who touched the puck during that period? I don't honestly think I earned anything, I was just saying I can't even hit the post, much less get a goal. I got ZERO goals, only assists even when I did get a good opportunity and just didn't make the shot happen. Maybe it's casue I'm twice everyone's age trying to keep up, and the one thing I'm good at is giving the puck to whoever is open and ready rather than being selfish and messing up my teams chance by hogging the puck when I know I can't make the shot. I apologize for coming off mean--I had a lot to drink and maybe could have worded it better. Ludwig doesn't pick on the D League guys out in Frisco, he just pushes them to work harder and takes his skill level down a few notches to where everyone can keep up. Everyone always has fun and hangs out afterward. I was trying to say that even against the best of players, it's an opportunity to learn--whether I can keep up or not, if they make it fair and are truly there to help and push us to succeed then I enjoy the game that night and welcome the lessons that someday I'll be too old to play and learn and enjoy anymore. My days are already few and numbered for a sport like hockey, but I'll enjoy every one of em I get and try my best. I'm not trying to be a jerk, I just tend to choose poor wording soemtimes. I wish everyone the best of luck in their hockey endevours and hope everyone reaches their own personal goals related to the game. Life is way too short to not enjoy stuff like this. I'll never underestimate the friends I've made at all these rinks either--they've made being around a little longer that much better. Sorry if I came off a prick, definitely not my intentions
Who do you play for out frisco?
Team "BEER"
You're right 27, my bad. You wanted those of us who can't compete in the Training League to move to stick and puck or Grapevine. My 'mates are just fine and we win often enough. From what I can tell, the rest of the teams aren't much different than mine.
If those competitive folks were as competitive as they claim, they'd be in a league of their peers. This goes for D too.
Again if you want to play down a league, fine. My only suggestion is adjust your level of play accordingly.
No, 27, the fact is that some of us actually would prefer the Instructional League to be just that. My teams win often enough for it to be fun when we pull one out and make us grind our teeth when we let one slip away. It's such a tired line that gets trotted out constantly: anyone who doesn't like the way the I-League is now must just be whining about not winning. No, some of us remember when the I-League actually supplied coaches -- some sessions, you got lucky and even got a qualified one! -- and the focus was on learning. Every team -- let me repeat that...every team -- has at least one guy on it who could barely turn and could not stop. Was the hockey ugly? Hell, it was unrecognizable sometimes. But for the guy who couldn't stop, it was amazing and fun. Ask yourself whether you think the current I-League really allows entry-level folks to learn and enjoy hockey.
As for your question about whether everyone would like it without the championship, well, no, of course not. It's already been said: if you want competition, go to the D-League! In fact, everything you say about the current I-League -- you get better getting your head stove in by guys way better than you; go to stick and puck; get better and quit whining about sucking -- apply just as well to the D-League. So why don't more of you go suck it up and play in a competitive league instead of patting yourselves on the back for being the 250 lb. champion of the 125 lb. weight class wrestling league? Would lots of people leave the I-League to play in the D-League if the D-League suddenly became the lowest "real," competitive hockey league? Sure they would! And there'd be four teams or so of people who really wanted I-League, and they'd do their thing and you'd do yours. And I gotta think everyone would be happier, except for the people who need slow, fat kids to beat up on to feel good about themselves. They'd just have to hit a stick and puck during the week and quit whining about not winning.
Randy and Anonymous...In reply to your statements.
1. "You wanted those of us who can't compete in the Training League to move to stick and puck or Grapevine." - no, I dont want that, nor did I say that.. I am just saying that it is pointless to complain about there being competitiveness in I-league, because it isn't going to change.
2. "No, some of us remember when the I-League actually supplied coaches -- some sessions, you got lucky and even got a qualified one!"
-As far as I can tell they do supply coaches (it may be different if you form your own team. Dont quite know). We (and the grave diggers) have a great coach (don't get too full of yourself Bobby). I have learned a lot during games from him. He is always quick to point out what we need to change after coming back from a shift. Not to mention, the practices are actually structured. And last time I checked you (the Mutineer's) had one too (at least that is what your roster says)..
3. "Every team -- let me repeat that...every team -- has at least one guy on it who could barely turn and could not stop. Was the hockey ugly? Hell, it was unrecognizable sometimes. But for the guy who couldn't stop, it was amazing and fun."
-We have at least one guy who can barely turn or stop (me) on our team. And I think that most of the teams out there have the same.
3. "Ask yourself whether you think the current I-League really allows entry-level folks to learn and enjoy hockey."
- In all honesty, Yes, I think it does. Me and another guy on our team both joined a year ago and we are loving it. We still suck, but we have fun every time we play. You want another example on your team? Look at Bob-O. If I am not mistaken, he started from scratch a year or so ago and now look at him! So yes, the current I-league does help entry level folks learn and enjoy it. Yockey broke it up into minor and major for a reason.
4. "So why don't more of you go suck it up and play in a competitive league instead of patting yourselves on the back for being the 250 lb. champion of the 125 lb. weight class wrestling league?" I don't know about you, but I have played drop-in with guys from the higher leagues and have gone almost an hour straight without even touching the puck. I stay in I-league because I suck and at least there I get to shoot the puck every now and then. Many others do the same, others do it because they can only play on saturdays, and yet others do it because their friends are in the league... When you make a statement about "250 lb. champions in a 125 lb. weight class" you need to realize that such a statement not only applies to my team, or any other team, but to yours also. You (like many other teams) have some VERY talented players on your team.
-27
******
3. "Every team -- let me repeat that...every team -- has at least one guy on it who could barely turn and could not stop. Was the hockey ugly? Hell, it was unrecognizable sometimes. But for the guy who couldn't stop, it was amazing and fun."
-We have at least one guy who can barely turn or stop (me) on our team. And I think that most of the teams out there have the same.
******
If there'd been a way to edit my post, I would have. I made a typo there and I KNEW it would cause confusion. I meant to say every team HAD a guy who couldn't stop. And believe me, there are very, very few players in our I-league who are currently at the kind of beginner level I'm talking about. Anyway, sorry for the error.
As for the rest:
- Bob-O moved up, which is great, since he's young, relatively athletic, and learns fast. He was definitely ready to do so. I, on the other hand, am not yet at the point where I'm contributing solidly each night at the I-Minor level, so I think I need more instruction/practice than competition.
- As for all the reasons people choose to play I-Minor -- none of them, by the way, explain why the people who are clearly out of class don't play at least in I-Major -- I've heard them all and just found them wanting. As for ringers on my team, if it would allow for a real I-League, I'd be happy for them all to move up, be happy, play competitively, etc. Surely you don't think I'm defending any excesses we may commit? (Though you'll have to admit that, objectively, certain teams are guiltier than others; stats don't lie.)
- Sadly, we don't really have a coach. We used to have Louie, and I'd chip in substantial amounts of cash (if I had it) to have him back. Until then, not so much. I'll check my hockey bag and make sure I haven't been overlooking him all season. ;-)
- And as for complaining being pointless, maybe. I said as much already: as long as their making their revenue targets, why would they change anything? That doesn't mean it's not at least interesting to talk about the ways it was better before and the ways it's improved and the ways it could improve more.
- Finally, I didn't mean for this to be something personal about you. (Me not knowing you at all would make that difficult in any case.) I'm really glad you feel like the current system is doing everything that you need. I'm only suggesting that people take a second and consider what it would be like to be on the Ice Holes or another team like that. (My sincere apologies for using that team as an example...just trying to make a point.) Imagine that you just want to get better to the point where you can keep up in games, perform the skills, etc. Is the current, fairly competitive environment really going to help someone with little to no experience come onto a struggling team and get enough positive reinforcement that they'll actually want to come back for a second season? Don't you think such teams might have a bunch of people say no thanks? I'm just saying that those of us with little talent and not just a ton of competitiveness would love to have a place to learn again, without people coming in, beating us by 6 goals and taunting us after the last-minute slapshot from the top of the circle like they'd just accomplished some great feat. (Well, OK...maybe that borders on personal...hehe) If, as someone suggested, those people could come in and be supportive, fun, and maybe even give some advice to the people they're beating up, they'd not be getting in the way of learning, and losing to them would be pretty fun and there'd be suds afterward and so forth. But when people act like the Stanley Cup is on the line and will do anything, including having essentially the whole team play down a league or two, to win, then it makes it a lot less likely that the Ice Holes of the world are going to want to stick it out to get better.
I know you're not saying it, but I'm sure there are plenty who want to say "good riddance to all those pussies." Shrug.
I don't play in Frisco, my ticket rep does and I work down the road from the rink so if he tells me Ludwig is there I'm going to go watch for fun. I'm not sure they have an I League there or not. Unfortunately I have probably about 6 months to go before I'm cleared to play or skate or start running again.
I've been reading the latest blog and am a little disapointed. BC3 takes his personal time to put in the effort to run this thing and some of the feedback has gotten kinda rough. BC3 thanks for putting in the time and effort most people never would for something you care about--I believe I'll stick to just your articles without reading comments.
In the meantime while I try to heal up and hopefully return to the ice and running again, I'll enjoy watching my son and neighbor continue to play and have fun. I even saw a guy who could barely skate accidentally tackle his own teammate coming off the bench the other week in a runin collision, yet they laughed and moved on. I suppose that's where the new players and more experienced players mix well to form a balance. I hope everyone finds the sport fun still and gets along just fine.
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